chasovschik

1. okay, let's be consistent? that "someone" snitched because he or she felt excluded.

2. this reminds me of a recent case of two lesbians probably (likely) deliberately ordering a wedding cake from a christian-own bakery, who has since either bankrupted or closed, i don't remember which, or moved - anyway, it is clear to me and my goldfish that their trying to order their wedding desert there was a case of provocation, probably lovingly thought-out as a marriage gift to each other.

3. it also reminds me of a much older case where a certain hard-core feminist kept trying to crash into Ivy club, an all-male exclusive affair. she was rebuffed refused and even thrown out, but kept trying. about 10 years later the club started accepting women, but i doubt that was because of Sally Frank's actions.

4. that reminds me of of anti-segregation actions of southern blacks, sitting in the front of the bus, going to a "white" restaurant, etc.

we celebrate some of those actions and deplore others, depending on where we stand on the issue.

a consistent thinker would say - either all of those actions are good, rocking a bad boat - or that all of those actions are bad, rocking a working boat they did not have to get on.

but we are not consistent thinkers, right? we have sympathy for some rockers and occupiers but not for otehrs?

we are hypocrites, partisan or not. the editorial WE may or may not incude you, i don't know if you are willing to either accept or reject all 1 2 3 4 actions. for me first 3 are toxic and unnecessary provcaitons, but 4 is fine though it is essentially the same action.

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They are not essentially the same :) City bus is not a private enterprise, it is funded by public money, isn't it?

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i stand corrected. there is a difference, Rezo, you are right, but the principle is the same.

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Yes, I just wanted to make a point: what is happening now is an attempt to expand the power of state into private life of citizens. And it's a part of a wider trend, I am afraid.

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it has happened already, we missed that train. but please read my comment to atytarenko - when you start to define "public" and "private", you run into trouble. it is easy in case of transportation, hospitals, supermarkets....

not so easy when it comes to small businesses.

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You are probably right. I have not yet given it enough thought....

(BTW, I am glad I can agree with you on something :))

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murr-murr.

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actually, the fundamental difference is that your 1,2,3 all are about private properties, and the 4th is about a public one. You can do whatever you want on/with you private property, but you cannot have similar free hand when it comes to public one. That's why sitting before a bus is absolutely right, and going to the restaurant is wrong, unless it has some government ownership.

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no, a public library is a public space no less than a bus is.

you and Rezo are absolutely right that there IS a difference between a private club in a private university and a business class lounge of an airline, say.

but.. that difference is fuzzy too many times and loopholed in too many places.

that private university obtains massive federal support and state support for its students and its faculty, even if not directly for infrastructure, buildings, etc. there are millions x ?? by N of federal money, in which the university is invested and relying on crucially for research etc. so it is not strictly a PRIVATE enterprise, but a public-private partnership. and the feds have a right to demand equal treatment for all groups, and exclusion of university support for groups that discriminate.

the Ivy Club is on university property. its building, grounds, etc, are supported by the university. its members are university students who benefit from various grants directly or indirectly.

so is it TRULY a private space? of course not.

it is more fuzzy with the bakery - in theory, a private business like a BB or bakery can refuse services to anyone, including blacks jews and redhairs. however that place, any business, is not in a vacuum. it relies on town, to whom it pays, for trash removal, water, heat. so the town may impose its own standards of behavior on small business owners ans well as on hospitals and supermarkets. if they ( teh bakers) want to be true to their christian values, let them buy a lot in teh country, dig a well, buy a generator and declare that no redhairs jews or lesbians are welcome. that would be fine by me.

so .. in principle, all 1-2-3-4 are equal.

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"however that place, any business, is not in a vacuum. it relies on town, to whom it pays, for trash removal, water, heat"... LOL, reminds me Obama's phrase 'you didn't build it!" :)) Sorry, Molly, couldn't help but notice :))))

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:-) hey, even takinet is occasionally right, why can't obama be too? i mean, loshadi really vpadaiut v kaspijskoe more.

there is a gray line here. or rather a gray field. there are two interesting points particularly.

1) could a completely stand-alone operation (on its own land and owning its utilities and gettign zero handouts from teh government) - can they discriminate?

to me the answer is - yes, they can.

2) could that bakery be left alone rather than targeted, or rather should the municipality /state who give out licenses refuse to hand out a license unless there was a statement of on discrimination on the part of the business owner?

i think this is for the individual local governments to decide...

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zapiens.livejournal.com

Not to take sides on the discrimination issue, but no operation is completely stand-alone - even in an unincorporated area, it might be paying property taxes for fire and emergency services; being a business, it is presumably contributing from and benefitting from national defense and entitlements via federal taxes.

That's why sea-steading was discussed by libertarians at some point, IMHO.

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and i want to remind you of a case maybe ?? 3 y ago? 4? in GB. a B&B refused services to a gay couple. apologized, returned the deposit, etc. the men went elsewhere, but there was no american-style media autodafe of the owner of the B&B. she was simply blacklisted on gay vacations site where the couple recalled their experiences.

so, the english, while PC, enough to blacklist trump, are not PC enough to prosecute on small cases like that.

i wonder what that says about us and about them.

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Sure, you cannot discriminate black in the bus, and you cannot discriminate white in the library. You can be right about the university, but only if the club don't pay the lease. Same about BLM: if they leased the meeting place, they can disinvite whomever they want. If it was provided by community at no fee - sorry, no "black only".
Bakery pays its taxes, utilities, etc., so get off their back, and let them deal with their revenues and possible negative publicity.
But mostly use common sense.
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At this time I see more and more cases of racism against whites, and this worries me. I've already seen info about white shaming day somewhere on the West Coast, and Ottawa city council held "hijab appreciation" day. I think this is a core of the problem. My wife already had minor problems in the grocery stores in some areas just because she looks Jewish.

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well, the club is on university's land. and accepts tax breaks, too, as a student organization. etc etc. i am arguing the devil's advocacy here. when i was there it would not occur to me to try and gain entry into a men's club - it seemed silly, even as i was fairly left then, i was not civic-minded, like that Sally Frank person ( a scary woman) - who would say that my inertness was part of the oppression i was under, but i did not feel oppressed one bit, and was even invited to dances and dates in that club ( i was smazlivaya) - i just took it for granted that there are boy's clubs, period, and it did not disturb me. now, in Sally's defence - those clubs are part of the greater university, are financially and physically dependent on the university. so although i disliked her and her kampf - in the end, she was right.

that's what i mean by our hypocrisy, my hypocrisy - she was right, and yet i did not like her nor the lesbians that provoked the bakery. the bakery was a carefully chosen target, as was the Ivy club.

as to leasing, etc - this is a weak argument. money is of no consequence. what makes a real difference is the definition of a "public space" or a "public service" . i wish we had a good lawyer here to explain better than i ever could. in short - in court ( no pun intended) - any private business or event using public resources like garbage disposal and heating - can be in theory sued for using discriminatory admission tactics. those tactics will be tolerated for decades - until there is a whistle-blower, informant or a crusader who disturbs the equilibrium until the eggs cannot be unscrambled.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

as to hijab appreciation, i .. am speechless. not sure about white shaming, sounds like a joke.

how can they tell jewish from an arab?? they usually can't!!

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1. I think that the fundamental difference is fact of pay. To make it brief: say, silk is made on Chinese land, and silk shirt is made on Chinese government- owned factory. Does China have a right to tell you, how you are allowed to wear this shirt after you bought it? No way, you paid for it. Same with the club: land use, utilities, etc. - all is included in the lease pay. But if they "just use it" - well, the scary woman is right.
2. Here it is: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/whiteness-history-month-college_us_569eb6ace4b04c813761e3eb
3. Distinction is simple: she don't wear headscarf, that's all. It is not wide-spread, at least not so far, just go to the better chain, but we had it. Note that it is Canada. Nothing like that we had in MD or VA, it is quite opposite there. Aged black woman often steps back to let young white male to pass.

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An aged black woman often steps back to let a young white male pass.

what's so good about that, either...

no, not pay. because you can pay to have a party at the MET. but you cannot say "whites only and no jews" for your party.

thankx for teh ref, i will look at it.

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nothing good, I felt extremely uncomfortably.
As of pay - there must be some limitation. Otherwise in 5 years you can end up with crowd of Baltimore ghetto graduates crashing your party...

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eh, i won't have a party at the MET :-)))

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nobody ever proved that life is fair )))

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i would not want a met party. i would want one in teh national gallery in DC

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art gallery is also good

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wait wait. "whiteness shaming" was the accusation of the conservatives, not the purpose of the event.

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...which is funny by itself, but (I cannot say about US, 8 years since I left) it is smell of skin colour issues in the air at US attic.

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bbb.livejournal.com

То есть, к примеру, если есть какая-нибудь общественная организация с членством и т.д., она не может провести свои закрытые встречи в помещении библиотеки?

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chasovschik.livejournal.com

Если членство закрыто по расовому признаку или по прочим civil rights критериям - не может. За остальные варианты не поручусь.

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